Jon Richardson and Matt Forde interview
So tell me a little bit more about the people you met. Each programme had a different theme, so you had relationships, children and money. Who did you meet for each one?
JR: Well, in the relationships one, as we’ve established, I felt that most conventional marriages don’t end well. So the starting point was meeting a couple who had been married for 54 years and are happy. And they are clearly happy. But that may not be the reality for most people. So we met couples who are married but don’t live together…
MF: Madness!
JR: It’s the only thing we did on the whole road trip where I went in open-minded and he went in cynical.
MF: And I came out just the same. “You know what, you’re nice people, but this cannot continue. It just doesn’t make any sense.” He’s got a bachelor pad down the road.
Did they have kids?
JR: She’s got kids from a previous relationship, and they’ve had a kid together. And he takes their kid home with him most nights. They’re sort of respite care for each other. It’s not right for everyone, but it works for them. I wanted it to work for everyone, because that would be great for me. Get married, but don’t live together.
As someone who fears they’re difficult to live with, because they’re difficult to live with, well… Lucy [Beaumont]’s happy to live with me, but if she turned around and said “I really love you, but you’re doing my head in, can we stay together and I’ll live next door,” I’d love that to work.
In their situation, it works. He’s a fireman, so he works shifts, so they can see each other during the day a lot. The kids are all at school, and they can hang out. They probably spend more quality time together than a conventional couple. They go out shopping, they have sex in the afternoon, they close the curtains and watch horror movies. Matt was obsessed with how much they had sex in the afternoon.
MF: I thought it was amazing! And they still get excited about seeing each other. It’s like they’re still dating. That was the one bit that made sense to me. If it’s keeping things fresh, especially in the bedroom, there’s definitely a boon to it. But the whole thing only worked because he did shift work.
And you met some swingers as well, didn’t you?
JR: I went to meet them. He bailed.
MF: I didn’t bail. It was the one night I couldn’t be there, because I had to do a gig. I was livid that I missed it. Of all the things I could have missed out on. Oh my God, it sounded hilarious. I dropped him off and then rang him later.
JR: It was terrifying. The most nerve-racking thing we filmed.
MF: I’d have been straight in there!
JR: There was a couple who ran these parties from their house. Friday night was singles night, Saturday night was couples night, you paid something on the door and that was it. You pay more on exit, in my opinion! I didn’t think I’d get anything out of it, but it taught me a lot. Specifically about trust, and how much your own insecurity drives your lack of trust.
As a couple, they’d seen each other do things that would end most relationships immediately. But not only are they okay with it, they endorse it. Once you cross that line together, that you can do anything, you know that your relationship is beyond all of that. One night a month, they can do whatever they like, and when they wake up the next morning, they know their relationship is intellectual and solid.
His theory of swingers was that they are more intelligent, more successful and better looking people, because you need a level of self-security to be convinced your partner’s not going to leave. I’m not sure I agree with him, but that’s his view.
In the programme about kids, you had to look after a virtual baby. What is that, and how did it go?
MF: It was hell. It screeches at such a volume and pitch. It’s like a real baby’s screams, it’s just relentless. It’s basically a baby doll, and it’s programmed to cry specific cries depending on what it wants – feeding, nappy, burping or rocking – and it’s very hard to discern between them.
JR: And it’s sporadic. Sometimes it will go off twice in 20 minutes, and then it won’t go off for two hours.
Were you looking after the baby in the camper van?
JR: We booked a hotel, because apparently the van was an unsuitable environment in which to be looking after a baby. So we stayed in a hotel in Croydon. It was interesting. It was a test of our relationship in a way which I hadn’t expected. My fear was that he sleeps very heavily – some nights he’s been asleep in this van and I’ve stood on his head to go out for a piss and he’s not even stirred. I was worried that he’d sleep through the night and I’d end up doing everything.
What actually happened was he got really competitive about being the one that got the point for touching the pad on the baby’s chest, so actually he ended up doing everything and I ended up sulking. I did end up getting really annoyed with him. There would be times when I’d be holding the baby and it would start to cry, and he’d be sprinting across the room, knocking pensioners over, just so he could get the point.
MF: Yeah, I was knocking real babies out of the way.
JR: He did, however, register two catastrophic fails, by failing to support the neck of the baby. So he’s a good father, but to a baby who for the rest of its life will require round-the-clock care.
And what about the programme about money? Who did you meet for that?
MF: We met this incredible guy…
JR: Brian Burnie, from Newcastle, was the individual who mad the biggest impression on us. He was a self-made millionaire, and his wife got cancer. She became very ill, and he started to realise that for people who don’t have very much money, getting to and from treatment is worse than the treatment itself, either because they feel so rotten and exhausted or because they can’t afford the travel costs. So much so that some people even stop their treatment before they are better.
So he gave literally every penny away. Sold their house, bought a building which he runs the charity from. And they now live above the charity, renting a flat from the charity with his pension.
MF: And the place they were in before was a proper stately home. It’s not like a footballer’s house, it’s proper old, country land. We drove up the driveway with him, he’d not been back since. It was surreal.
JR: It was the kind of thing you might hear about, or read about in the paper, but I will never in my life shake hands with someone again who has given away nearly £20 million to set up a charity. He’s said he wants to die penniless. It’s impossible not to be awed by that.
We’re looking at the whole question of whether money makes you happy, or can you be happy without it. You meet him, and you want him to be the happiest person in the world, but obviously his wider happiness is still built day-to-day on his relationship with his kids and his wife. And that’s been damaged by what he’s done. So you don’t even get to come away from that concluding that everyone should give away all that they have.
